German Klimenko: “We only have one big story left - this is deanonymization”

At the beginning of June, I arrived at the RIT ++ conference to spend time with colleagues who organized habrasuds and in the evening to celebrate the 11th birthday of Habra . We broadcast live from the event and interviewed the speakers. When I was offered an interview with German Klimenko , adviser to the President of the Russian Federation on the development of the Internet, I immediately agreed, because, firstly, I’ve known him for a long time, since the early 2000s, and secondly, I haven’t seen for a long time, 10 years, probably. And thirdly, I have accumulated enough questions for people who, in particular, are related to the development of the Internet in Russia. Since the interview format assumed only 10 minutes of communication, and Hermann answered only a few questions during the interview, I suggested to meet and talk separately in more detail. We talked for 1.5 hours; below, I offer you a text version of the interview with small cuts where they were possible.

Looking at the sharply increased activity of government agencies and officials regarding the regulation of the Internet, I would like to ask the question that is now literally of everyone: what is happening? Why has activity increased dramatically?

First, you just forgot what hysteria was when they passed the law of forgetfulness, what was hysteria when they passed the law of bloggers. Now, frankly, I do not see much excitement. There is such a thing as “critical mass”, because of which you get the feeling.

I judge at least by comments. All these news appear that they are going to ban something else, and you can see how users on Geektimes leave hundreds or even thousands of comments on these news. It is evident that this is very worried about people.

In my opinion, when they took the law on bloggers and oblivion , for some reason they clung more. I'm talking about how journalists tortured me. You see, everything is quite simply explained, there are no evil intentions. Any citizen can do anything in his garden. Embroider tic-tac-toe, for example. Dig the beds. Exactly until, until ... Here we were embroidering, we were fine, yes. That is, no one interfered. Even now, if we seriously think about it, the state is not at all interested in what is happening on the Internet until we come to the state. In general, if we turn the story around, the state did not want to see us, when we called him on the RIF , it did not want to come to us. Not at all wanted. Sit there quietly, but we began to make noise. Who attacked e-commerce without declaring war? Who! Sorry, we. Who, sorry, plowed the whole taxi market? And then he innocently got up in the corner and said: you know, there are still all sorts of licensing stories, you can clear them too, we will also plow them, we will also own them. The same interpretation also has the right to exist? The state is a story about taking into account many, many interests. Population, business. In general, the country lives, breathes, taxes normally pay, and suddenly, without a declaration of war, people come. Sorry, here you come to the Old Square, in a plaid shirt, T-shirt, sneakers. By local standards - total indecency. And you want to talk about something with us (do not forget to put smiles when deciphering you). So you didn't even show respect. Now, if we look at this side, the state did not come to us at all. The more we get into the niche of the state, the more we go to where the regulator has always been. There has always been a regulator. Is always.

There has always been regulatory in the media. We came, said. We - "no, that you, that you." Free media, free ticket office. You see, my position is more complicated. You can take the same position of conditional Milonov, or take a position of conditional ... Who is responsible for Lurkmore? Khomak, yes. And imagine where the wind would not go, if you are in one direction, you are on the way, in the opposite direction, you are not noticed. And in the middle of standing and marking the facts, how they happen ... You get out of here, and you get out of here. If objectively, the state would not have known us for ages, to be honest, and would have lived happily and endlessly happy until we got into the economy.

It seems to me that the state began to show activity when it learned that the Internet is an environment that is already more than the television button in the audience.

Well, that's your opinion, I'm telling you about my opinion. The state was clearly visible when it reacted ... For example, for me, such a symbol was the growth of e-commerce. When Odnoklassniki appeared, everyone learned how to use computers and started a sharp increase in all our different markets. And when we intervened, and not just wanted to engage in distance selling, but claimed control ... The state was really surprised when we filled up the Post of Russia four years ago on the New Year. It appreciated the scale. Not the Internet itself, but the effect of the Internet. It still does not feel it and does not see, we must pay tribute. But we are trying in every way to manifest ourselves, we want to say in every way: we are here, the state.

You still got away from the question.

I did not leave, I answer. I have a very good story, it is called the great white shark. The great white shark is a little deaf and a little blind. She is reflexive, she swims for herself, she is very big, by the way, it is quite difficult to finish her. But while you are near you will not start meltishit. When you flicker, she flashes and twitches. If you do not flicker, she does not flicker and does not twitch. Here is my point. We have made every effort for the state to pay attention to us. Another question is whether we could not pay attention. Of course not. Because inside something grows, its life appears.

So that you understand, let's take the story of the appearance of Sasha Spielberg in the Duma . So I look at the deputies, at Sasha Spielberg and I understand that the legislators are trying to talk with us, but the trouble is that we did not show them to you, someone else, we showed them Sasha Spielberg. Themselves showed pay attention. The deputies thought, well, well, let's agree with Sasha Spielberg. Then they started laughing. But the general situation is that we should clearly understand, our industry has come to talk with other industries, which, I apologize, do not catch up somewhere, they have no competencies, moreover, they do not want to receive them, they don’t need it . Therefore, I think, as in any quarrel, the fault is mutual, if we perceive the regulatory framework as guilt.

And the second part of the question is extremely simple. We all love money. And if you look where there is no controller, there is no money. For example, imagine a certain abstract city, where everything is good with transport. Cars drive, all is well. But if you remove all the signs, remove all restrictions, you will not be able to drive at all. There are stories when the regulator increases the passage of volumes. And there is overregulation. For example, North Korea, there is Cuba with a fairly specific control over the Internet.


Iran, yes. And answering the question of where we are, I would say that we are at the very beginning of this journey. That is, we are in a stimulating mode. Since I possess competencies not only in real life, but also in virtual one, I can say that compared with real life, it seems as though we blow dusty particles from us and say: Denis, are you doing well? Oh, hell, peresalili chips. Wait, wait, now we will ferry. Formally, the story is as follows. First, I am sure that this is our initiative, a very persevering initiative; our participation in the ordinary economy led to the state unfolding in us. And the second part is that there is nothing wrong with the regulators in principle.

Let's take the messengers. Why should they ...

You are very sharp. Wait, you have to go smoothly. Listen, don't be harsh.

It's just that you have been answering the first question for 7 minutes, but I have a lot of them and we may not have time to meet the allotted time. I have just the second question about messengers.

I understand that you will continue to have nasty questions, so ...

No, I do not all nasty, and will be on the case.


Do you read the anonymous channels in the telegram?

Incident, I even know Mariana Ro and Ivangaya. I'm curious, so yes, I monitor.

Imagine that you have taken and banned anonymous communication in instant messengers. Not as an official, but as a citizen, how would you treat this?

It is necessary to draw a clear line between anonymity and privacy. What is anonymity? This is when a person sells drugs. When he orders a kill. When evading taxes. And it can not be found.

That is, an anonymous telegram channel "Nezygar" - it turns out, a crime of some kind?

Wait, I'll negotiate. Then there is such a thing as privacy. That is, the right of a person to leave his life private - as long as he does not violate the right of another person. Here you mentioned the channel "Nemygar". Today there was news that Klimenko uses ICQ. Also came out with such an intonational history ... Look, I have so many sins in my life that the last sin I would like to write myself in the column of sins is, well, well, this is the use of ICQ. If I even come to court and say that “Nezygar” has offended me, the court will say: I have not insulted. Sorry, let him remain who he is. He did not slander me.

Now imagine that “Nezagyar” is you, and you write that Klimenko steals money and stole 100 million rubles. I say: colleagues, I do not mind, but I want, if the person wrote it, so that he would answer for it. This is a media model. In the media, you can write whatever you want, but when you come to court ... A journalist can hide his source endlessly, Telegram hides sources, but until the law is broken. As soon as the law is violated, Telegram must disclose the sources. I want to honestly see the man who accuses me of having stolen something. And I want, if he does not prove, then let him sit down. I just want to have a normal relationship in normal life. Because when you say something, you have to answer for it. This is the difference between anonymity and privacy. Your right to write somewhere and keep in secret that you wrote it - this is called privacy. But when you sell drugs - I’ve a little bit of a twist here, so that there is a strong argument - I come to Telegram and say that I need this person, who is now trying to sell drugs to my son - and you are obliged to give it away. That's the whole argument.

And VPN - why block it ?

What blocked?

This is the latest news from the Duma. They want to ban the use of VPN and ...

AND…? Wait, let me continue. I’ve already got the bureaucratic wisdom. Let's talk about already accomplished events. Over the past 6 years, our deputies have adopted a lot of laws regulating the Internet. Suppose it was like ... Here at the spaniel the tail is immediately chopped off. And we cut it in pieces. This is a cruel analogy. The trouble is that everything that the deputies are taking, it really is - piece by piece. But this is not the spaniel. Because when they take the law on bloggers, it suddenly becomes clear, and is who? Unclear. And who will measure the numbers? I am not justifying anyone now, not blaming anyone, this is very important. But imagine that you have 450 people sitting in the Duma with a different life experience. They have neither my experience nor your experience. I’m really telling some officials now what site traffic is, where to watch how many have watched a particular video. They have a fundamentally different experience. And here they are trying to regulate something, what they see as a danger, while the chain of expertise is completely absent.

Now imagine, just stand on their side: where do they ask for expertise about the Internet? This is a serious question. Without banter and jokes. We have the trouble of the Internet that we went like a football. Everyone understands football, everyone understands the Internet. And as a result of what the deputies are taking, well, for example, the story of the blue whale. I professionally understand that this is a bloated story, I professionally understand that we are dealing with a flashmob modification. Deputies really adopt the law on strengthening responsibility. Forgive me, but for 15 years really caught at least one? And now pay attention, there are a lot of moments in this story. This includes an explanation of why they want to block the VPN. Have you talked to deputies? Have you tried to offer them at least some mechanism how to deal with this?

Here I think ...

No no. I understand, my interview, I answer the ugly questions, and you only good.

I do not know who to ask in the Duma, but I know you, therefore I ask.

So I answer you. This is not the word "incompetence", it is a real problem. How to solve it? Do you know her decision? Are you ready to write? I will bring this decision method to any deputy and we will solve it.

I understand correctly that blocking VPN and anonymizers is the solution to this problem with anonymity and privacy?

She goes on the same border. I started talking about laws. We always cut the tail to the wrong spaniel. I am absolutely sure that all states will build virtual boundaries. In varying degrees of transparency, in varying degrees of rigidity, depending on how the state relates to this. There is a variant of North Korea, and in America, it must be admitted, it has its borders, only they are determined by the fact that they own all the resources that exist. Both our state, and France, and Germany will sooner or later come to the conclusion that the work on their territory of foreign services will be regulated. All build boundaries. Please Ukraine, a typical example. They put a fragmentary border. There were 26 million Ukrainians a day visiting the Russian-language Internet, how much is left?

I did not measure.

8 million. Of these, 2.5 million go for VPN, and there is a tendency to decrease. Now an experiment is taking place in Ukraine that gives all the answers to your questions. Only at the expense of Ukraine, and not at the expense of us. In all the laws that exist now, it is not legislative initiatives that irritate me, but the fact that orders are given that are not executed. Neither the law on bloggers, nor the law on oblivion, nor the law on news aggregators in the sense in which they were initiated and discussed, are not enforced. As a result, power is discredited. Every time they tell me, Klimenko, you are a scoundrel, you stand on the side of ghouls, but I tell them: colleagues, who have done anything bad to you? Who has regulated whom? Where?

Well, for example, I feel regulated.

Stop. Is the glass half full or half empty? These are your personal feelings. What happened? Where are you overregulated? What you are not allowed to do legal, God forgive me? What did you do before that they banned you now? Tell me, please, honestly, under the record.

I used to tell users that we have a free resource, you can write and not be afraid. Now users ...

… Wait wait. To write illegal and not be afraid that you will be punished. Finish the text. Did you post child pornography? Instructions for the manufacture of drugs.

This is not about drugs and ...

... Wait, wait, wait. We understand what we are talking about. Let's do the model. Ukraine has always been a free, independent state. The Internet was happy, always cited as an example, saying that you have a gadsky Roskomnadzor, and we have nothing. No one felt regulated as you are now, and then one fine moment of khloby - and fell from the sky. More and 1C banned. I repeat: I am not ready to discuss core stories. Deputies are deputies, the population is the population.

But the feeling that the sword is brought - it is.

We, by your example, are now witnessing an act of genetic transfer in 1937 from 2017. The sword in general is always brought. Have you come here by car?

No, on the subway.

Metro. Do you drive a car?

I drive.

What is the probability that the wheel will fall off?

Something is.

The sword is brought. In general, if we recall “Master and Margarita”, God forgive me, “we did not hang, we were not cut off”. Human life is some kind of life itself. Life is a resource - it is the same. Nobody promised to feed on the way. But for the time being ... yes, your electricity might go off, sorry. Have you ever had a disaster when the resource fell?

It was.

So what, how are you? This sword ... Come this way, in a different way. You know, you are now manifesting all the elements of a social being. The facts are not terrible to you, although it was all. You are afraid of what is, in principle, not happening to you. In the sky thunder rumbles, you go out - and dear pray. Here you are, by and large, portray yourself godly.

Herman, I do not depict. Two of our resources at the request of the FSB are in the register of distributors of information.

Do you spread information?

Spreading. Many spread.

So I tell you, my God, thunder thunder. You need to find some explanation. Wow, God is angry. Catastrophe. So what? We have all the information disseminating resources with some attendance are in the registry.

No, not all. There are resources with high attendance, where, for example, there are many political parties, but they are not in the registry. As I understand it, the question is in cooperation.

Stop, stop. Is this an official statement? Do you give a list of collaborators? I will tell colleagues now.

No I will not give. Why kill people.

Why ruin?

I know that there are people who cooperate, and due to this, their resources are not in the registry.

What does it mean to work together? I do not understand what you're saying.

This is when a comrade colonel calls you and says that this is what is needed there. And you do without any documents.

Did you get a call?

I did not call, they called my staff. .

I used to do Internet business in pre-Soviet times, and I had several incidents with colleagues who came, but I politely sent everyone. There is a law, act according to the law. There is a court decision, get it. We have about the same power as you. Forgive me if you are a saint, I drop all the charges, and say that I am guilty, but if by chance it turns out that you have sins, let me have them too. In the system, not in our private relations. Blaming a person whose job is to look for something is that he ... I have a lot of experience since the 90s, yes, and I have had different stories. I can not use the term "recruit", rather "Herman, but can we sometimes refer to you." Yes, I heard that too. What do they say that is unusual for their work? If you voluntarily agreed, what's the problem? Once again: this is not good,it is not great, but it is our life. What do your employees do? Do they give out information? You said "they called." Let's continue.

They no longer call because they told the staff not to go. He said let them send paper.

Come on. The average society operates on average. See any fighter as recruited. About American police look. They have such a job. Nobody planted you, nobody hid you, you don't commit anything illegal. I understand that this is an unpleasant story, nothing good in it. Unfortunately, life is not lined with roses. She is not lined with roses anywhere. But the question is how the authorities communicate. In my part, I try to translate this into some kind of civilized stream, so that you get used to checks carefully, and you are not very often touched on this subject. I am now summarizing.

A question that I have long wanted to ask someone who makes decisions.

I do not accept, I advise.

And yet. Linkedin was banned because they did not transfer the data. Why then did not ban Twitter and Facebook? They also did not transfer the data. And all the others who did not transfer the data were also not banned. It turns out the selective application of the law.

Circumstances always interfere with any law. Do you want Twitter and Facebook banned?

Not. I wonder why some banyat and others do not.

The law is a contract between society and government. In the case of Facebook and Twitter, the society does not allow to ban. We are all social beings, even employees of Roskomnadzor, and we understand that we must move a little bit. There is such a term “Italian strike” . So, I would not want our system to work with the Internet as an “Italian strike”. Otherwise, we will not even have time to develop.

Is Telegram banned? Knowing Durov and remembering the story with Fakim ​​Grishin, when he was bent, it can be assumed that he would not fulfill the requirements.

In my opinion, Durov did not show the NSA factor when he deleted ISIS channels.

I do not know what is there with the NSA and Durov, because I do not watch, but I follow what is happening with us. Recently, the head of Roskomnadzor Zharov published an open letter with the latest warning.

My phone is breaking due to this.

What will happen? Banned?

I sincerely hope that ... Zharova can be scolded endlessly, but he fulfills the law. We are now witnessing the creation of a precedent, and within the framework of my concept, all states in one degree or another will build virtual boundaries. And yes, we are on the way ...

Chinese Internet?

Why Chinese? To the Chinese Internet, we still like to the moon. Chinese Internet ... we already have half. This is Roskomnadzor, which bans sites. We only have one big story left - this is de-anonymization. The Chinese version is when we built a fence, and if you want to get to us, you will worship. The European option, I'm sorry, the same Chinese version is when you work, while you do not break. We go on the European version. We have - postmoderation, in China - pre-moderation.

How can you comment on the history of blocking Google ? What was it? Stupidity, incompetence?

Can i ask you?When your resource fell - what's this? And, DDoS, probably, was. The system is characterized not by errors, but by reaction. When my “lilishchka” ( diaries service ) grew, it often fell, and everyone laughed at us. All year grew and all year fell. We could not conquer history, we had a bad system.

Let's take a look at what happened with the Google block. Banned the domain, the scandal began, in 20 minutes the issue was resolved. Is it good or bad? Now the second question. Is it possible to repeat this story? Our goal is to train the system. If we have to teach a blind and deaf white shark, we must somehow react. Sorry, 20 minutes reaction time, what does not suit you? If you want to avoid errors, then first with your programmers decide that they are not mistaken. Once again: in the story with Roskomnadzor, we can laugh, but we can help. I do not in any way defend Roskomnadzor. But in their place I would turn to the industry and ask for help. Let's teach them. And laughter, by the way, is also a learning method.

How can you comment on the story of the vulnerability in the system of monitoring and blocking sites in Russia, which was discovered by activists - for which they immediately began to nightmare, by the way. This is normal?

This not normal.

Last question about Roskomnadzor. Do you think this is normal when the body that regulates the Internet business, including, is managed by a person who received an education in the specialty "anesthesiologist and resuscitator"?

You know, I had the experience of managing a metallurgical plant, but I have never even seen blast furnaces. Just did not see the blast furnace and all. Is it bad or good? Does Yandex.Taxi have at least one who worked as a taxi driver? I am not defending now, I am just answering the question. I have seen many different career stories. Even in my example. I am now Advisor to the President of the Russian Federation on the development of the Internet, although I have a military education. In general, Roskomnadzor is an element of the Ministry of Communications and Mass Media that was pulled out by us. In theory, everything that happens in Roskomnadzor, we must turn to the head of the department - Nikolai Anatolyevich Nikiforov.

Please name three important things that happened in our Internet industry during your time in office?

Telemedicine. I spent all my connections in the industry to make the topic of telemedicine fashionable. I’m absolutely sure that if my team and I didn’t intervene in this story, it would live in the mode “for another two years, another two years, another two years - until any events happened”. In general, it would endlessly. We have broken this topic and I sincerely hope that it will work.

The second story is the distance selling of medicines. This is a new big market.

All other stories are such small holidays, retail exports, for example. Frankly, I get an absolute thrill from work. I used to get up at 10 and came home at 23 o'clock. Now I get up at 7 and arrive at the same 23 hours. Plus another weekend. Previously, it was a completely free story, but now it is not.

Do you have plans for how to stimulate people to engage in online entrepreneurship?

I may not be a fashionable thing to say. But the writers say: can not write - do not write. You pret engage in "Habrom" and you do it, I would not want to - no one would be able to make you. As was 1.5-2% of those who are engaged in online business, and will remain.

Well, if you have plans to support current Internet entrepreneurs? For example, additional tax benefits.

We have ESN benefits for software developers . All the other proposals that we had, we shoveled them, but for the time being it will remain as it is. Unfortunately, so far we have not been able to work out a solution together with market participants.

Which internet entrepreneurs and managers of large Internet companies have you met / met with over the last year?

With all.

Do you often meet with your supervisor?

There are questions about work - we meet.

What does the Internet Development Institute live now ? In late January, Vedomosti wrote that there were difficulties with financing and there would be cuts - only a few people would remain. How many people are in your team?

We have always had few people working. As there were three plus person, so it remains. When we started, it was the story of a small state involving volunteers.

You are an official and you have no right to do business. What happened to your companies?

I have a very talented son. It has long been built into the business.

Watch what he does?

If I say that I do not watch, I will be wrong.

On go?

How can I not walk. I have a screensaver on my desktop.

Enough for a living official salary? What is your current salary?

You are not well prepared. Shame I'm not just an official, but I belong to the category of those who publish their declaration. And everything is written there. My salary is 3 million rubles a year. This is a good salary.

When you surf the Internet and come across negative comments about yourself, what do you think at this moment?

I definitely don’t pull comments from people I don’t know. I can really get angry, I can call, lay a curse ... When I negatively comment on my own, that is, those who understand how our market works, I get upset. For me the assessment is really important and I can grapple.

Before we go to the interview, we invited users to ask you a question on Twitter and Vkontakte . The questions turned out funny, in a certain key and ...

Reading these questions, it seems you understand the difference between anonymity and privacy, I guess? With many, I probably would like to meet?

Most likely. In general, the general premise in questions was something like this: when will you leave your post?

The people have never been kind. But I am proud to be here. I probably do not do everything perfectly due to lack of experience. But as soon as they say, so immediately and leave.


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